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Oh

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 16 for the six of februari

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2009 couple of interesting stories we

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have for you today let's kick off with

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an interview dr. Rachel conducted with

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Ben Goldacre from the bad science blogs

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that'll be followed by a short report

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where some of us went looking for a

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miracle miracle apparition here in

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Sydney on one of the beaches a vision of

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the Virgin Mary and then we'll have an

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interview with current New South Wales

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president of Australian skeptics peterb

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outage otherwise known as ratbags where

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he will discuss quackery dr. Ben

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Goldacre is an award-winning writer

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broadcaster and medical doctor who has

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written the weekly bad science column in

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The Guardian since 2003 he appears

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regularly on radio 4 and television and

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has written for Time Out New Statesman

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and the British Medical Journal as well

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as various book chapters his book bad

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science was released in october 2008 and

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has since gone on to be a best-seller

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and welcome to the skeptics I'm Ben

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Goldacre thank you for talking to us

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today hey hi good fun now Ben you bum

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got some sort you've got some science

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journalism in your family and in fact of

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interest to our Australian listeners

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would be that your uncle is the highly

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respected science broadcaster Robin

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Williams who's the host of the

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long-running ABC radio show the science

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show amongst others can you tell us how

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you became involved in science

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journalism yeah I mean it's completely

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unglamorous I am I like most nerds sort

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of recognized that almost everything I

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read in the newspapers that had anything

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to do with science or health thing to be

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sort of significantly wrong in a lot of

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cases so I just sort of i just i rang up

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the Guardian I mean people sort of

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imagined that breaking into the media

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must be amazingly difficult but on the

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letters page there's they have the

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address and the switchboard number and I

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just rang that up and said can I write

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for you and and they said yes and it's a

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bit ly couldn't be any less complicated

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really well and that was in 2003 you

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started writing the bad science column

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yeah yeah I mean I've done a couple of

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little bits and bobs here and there but

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not very much really and you know I mean

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I just sort of accidentally fell into it

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okay well your blog which is also called

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bad science reports on the media's

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misrepresentation of science and one of

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your most recent victories in this

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regard been occurred a couple of weeks

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ago and it was involving an interview

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you did on radio BBC four with the

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managing director of detox in a box uh I

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was all a bit childish really she um

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there are they invited me on to talk

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about sort of detox because every

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January obviously there's this sort of

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parade of morons through the media who

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say that by you know eating fresh fruit

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and vegetables for a week or two you can

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you know it change your long-term cardio

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basically vascular and cancer risk

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factors and all that sort of stuff which

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is plainly nonsense and I was speaking

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opposite somebody called deeds that had

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Nair's from detox in a box and she has a

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website that makes all these kinds of

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bizarre claims about things like cadmium

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and her disconnect from reality is so

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profound that when I read out sections

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of her own website to her

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she just sort of denied that they were

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even on her website at all which you

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know I don't know I suppose it gets you

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out of a sticky situation for the

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immediate next 30 seconds deny the

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contents of your own website but um yeah

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and I call them out on it what's the

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evidence that it will get rid of cadmium

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from my body we haven't actually made

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any claims on our website about cadmium

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on Mercury so don't actually know which

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website you're referring to you say one

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of the most complex detoxification

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functions is against heavy metals such

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as lead mercury cadmium which you

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misspelled I presume you mean cadmium

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nickel arsenic and alanine and I

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actually think you must be referring to

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or wrong the wrong website and its light

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difficulty because I haven't got the

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website in front of me so I thought I

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come I'll check and i'll post on please

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stop it later come back to leave huh it

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was a bit difficult i see because at the

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time i was sort of really polite and i

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just said okay well I'll go and check

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and I'll postal winks at bad science net

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later and lots of people did go and have

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a look at it but I'm never quite I mean

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I'm a sort of very sort of courteous

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person and I didn't want to sort of you

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know say you big fat liar they totally

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your website does that be wrong and

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awful and I think a lot of the time as

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well people probably who are listening

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only really engaged with the sort of

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emotional tempo of what's happening

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rather than then the factual content and

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so yes I was very polite but it turned

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out that in fact or I was right which

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you know I might not be always just

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always a nice treat when you are there

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well the BBC actually on air made that

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announcement there they in fact said the

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doctor was right and then detoxing the

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box had to put a disclaimer on their

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website is that correct uh yes oh yes

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she sort of deleted things off their

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website and then put things on saying

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that they've never really meant to say

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something or that they were sorry or

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something like that I mean it's all you

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know it's a as I'm sure you know arguing

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with people like that can be a slightly

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sort of elliptical in a roundabout and

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cloudy process the thing that I found

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strangest about it was that then

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afterwards now as the managing director

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you describe

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self is sort of md amazingly and we sort

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of saying I don't really understand why

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everybody's so angry with us and he just

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sort of hold your head in your hands

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really anyway but you you actually found

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some of the information on her website

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had been copied verbatim from other

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websites didn't you including spelling

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mistakes which was yeah I forgot that

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yeah yeah yes there was one bit on it

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that was sort of quite sensible about

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the sort of relationship between

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depression and diabetes it's very

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interesting areas of the crossover

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between medical and psychiatric health

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it really stood out as being sort of

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less ridiculous than the rest of the

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site but that's because it was simply

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copied and pasted from something written

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by a proper pharmacist and then the

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thing which I sort of caught them out on

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that where they were making sort of

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saying funny things about cadmium or

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cadmium as they said had meaning and

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other heavy metals including things that

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weren't heavy metals that also was

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copied and pasted verbatim from

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elsewhere it's interesting it's

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interesting because it's just another

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example I guess of how some people in

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the pseudoscience industry present

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themselves as being quite society and

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academic and yet sort of break all of

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the most fundamental tenets of our world

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like you know not copying and pasting

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text verbatim from other people's work

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and having evidence for the things that

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you say are correct I mean I think

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people are a bit hysterical about

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plagiarism in general to be honest I

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glad I actively want people to steal my

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ideas as a campaigning journalist and

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little know if they don't sort of link

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back to me then I think slightly less of

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them I suppose very I don't you know

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it's not huge crime but this is this was

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different this was this was large

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amounts of text verbatim which is funny

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well on that subject been yesterday it

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was announced in the UK that the

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complementary and national health care

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council is going to start a volunteer

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register for alternative practitioners

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and the foot one of the first group of

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people to be able to join our the

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nutritionist and I know that they're one

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of your favorites but what's your

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opinion of this legislation well I mean

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I think it's important for us to want to

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be clear that I don't

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really care very much about alternative

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therapists I mean I think they're an

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interesting opportunity to talk about

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the basics of evidence-based medicine

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they were useful sort of gimmick to hang

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that on and they're also a very powerful

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and influential movement culturally and

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and and that has quite corrosive effects

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on the sort of you know the intellectual

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life of the nation but I don't think

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that I'm not bothered about them ripping

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people off I'm not bothered about them

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killing people any of that kind of stuff

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I mean I'm happy to see that as a kind

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of you know people being ripped off as a

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kind of voluntary self-administered tax

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on scientific ignorance and and and

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where people die or are harmed by their

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interactions with alternative therapists

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in almost every single case it's because

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you know it's not I don't think the

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exploitive victim model works very well

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for that interaction you know as we've

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now setting with Nolan I these aren't

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suicide these aren't accidents they're

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throwing themselves willingly into the

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roads you know I think people who choose

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to follow really bonkers advice from

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alternative therapists and give up all

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of their anti-cancer medication and die

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I think they have to take equal

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responsibility for that but what I do

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think is that the that alternative

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therapists are along with the media and

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the way that they must represent science

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they're kind of working together to

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really undermine the public's

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understanding of what it means for there

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to be an evidence base for a proposition

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not just through the individual

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instances where they misrepresent things

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but also you see very commonly in the

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meter in the UK and people from the

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worlds of homeopathy talking about how

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you know randomized trials don't really

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work or why there are sort of

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methodological problems with systematic

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reviews and meta-analyses and the

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criticism that make a completely bogus

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but they're dangerous because they're

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happening at a time in the in sort of

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the history of medical interaction when

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doctors more than ever are trying to

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work collaboratively with their patients

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to make decisions about what would be

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the best treatment and that's that's

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quite a new thing and it's a very

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important thing 30 years ago

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communication skills training at Medical

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School for doctors was about how not to

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tell your patient that they've got

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cancer now if you went to see a doctor

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to discuss and you know possible

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treatments for cancer

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they would talk through the options of

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chemotherapy radiotherapy different

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forms of surgery they'd explain what the

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evidence is for the merits and risks of

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each they'd they talk you through how we

274
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know what we know and I think for the

275
00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:37,270
media and for quacks to undermine that

276
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:41,000
to me it is incredibly vicious and I

277
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:43,010
think that's the greatest danger that's

278
00:10:46,930 --> 00:10:44,330
why I think nutritionists are

279
00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:46,940
particularly toxic because they are the

280
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:48,500
alternative therapists who more than any

281
00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:50,770
other misrepresent themselves as being

282
00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:53,360
men and women of science they use the

283
00:10:56,530 --> 00:10:55,160
language of science and they they

284
00:10:58,420 --> 00:10:56,540
misrepresent evidence in a much more

285
00:11:01,270 --> 00:10:58,430
sophisticated way so they'll take for

286
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:01,280
example studies of the behavior of cells

287
00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:03,710
in a dish on a lab bench and then claim

288
00:11:07,090 --> 00:11:05,750
on the back of that that certain

289
00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:07,100
vitamins will have an impact on a

290
00:11:10,510 --> 00:11:08,990
disease in a living person which is

291
00:11:11,890 --> 00:11:10,520
something that say patrick holford the

292
00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:11,900
founder of the Institute for optimum

293
00:11:16,690 --> 00:11:13,910
nutrition has done in the UK in his

294
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:16,700
statement you know that I said T is less

295
00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:19,850
effective for AIDS than vitamin C and I

296
00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:20,870
think and that's why I think the

297
00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:22,550
nutritionists are particularly important

298
00:11:26,380 --> 00:11:24,980
and that's why i think it's a it's it's

299
00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:26,390
a double-edged sword this whole sort of

300
00:11:29,830 --> 00:11:27,320
regulation thing because i think

301
00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:29,840
regulation for alternative therapists

302
00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:31,520
will certainly be used by a lot of them

303
00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:34,190
to aggrandize themselves and they've

304
00:11:37,630 --> 00:11:35,840
certainly also i mean i don't know i

305
00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:37,640
don't know how it's going to play out in

306
00:11:40,390 --> 00:11:38,990
terms of you know who's on these

307
00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:40,400
different boards and sort of regulatory

308
00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:43,070
bodies but in the past their efforts to

309
00:11:46,060 --> 00:11:44,750
regulate themselves like for example the

310
00:11:49,210 --> 00:11:46,070
british association of nutritional

311
00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:49,220
therapists has been farcical we I mean

312
00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:50,630
they can't even make their minds up if

313
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:52,190
they're a regulator or not they have a

314
00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:54,800
code of conduct that's secrets that they

315
00:11:58,720 --> 00:11:56,030
wouldn't give out to people when they

316
00:12:01,930 --> 00:11:58,730
ask today and they change their code of

317
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,940
conduct in response to and approaches

318
00:12:05,770 --> 00:12:03,440
from industry they specifically change

319
00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:05,780
their code of conduct to allow of

320
00:12:10,270 --> 00:12:08,230
nutrition therapists to take yeah

321
00:12:11,710 --> 00:12:10,280
undisclosed cuts on the pills they

322
00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:11,720
prescribe to their patients and stuff

323
00:12:15,730 --> 00:12:14,150
like that so you know I don't know how

324
00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:15,740
it will play out on the specifics but

325
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:17,750
the one thing we do know is that they're

326
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:20,330
regulating sort of propriety which is

327
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:21,440
important because there have been lots

328
00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:24,560
of cases in the UK of alternative

329
00:12:28,740 --> 00:12:26,240
therapists doing things like having sex

330
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:28,750
with their patients which is just rice

331
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:31,010
disgusting really I mean it beneath

332
00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:33,290
beneath contempt in a couple of cases it

333
00:12:37,630 --> 00:12:34,910
was specifically

334
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,640
you know people had gone to see and an

335
00:12:42,990 --> 00:12:39,440
alternative therapists for a mental

336
00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:43,000
health problem you know and yeah and he

337
00:12:49,930 --> 00:12:47,110
and you just think I don't know I mean

338
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:49,940
anyway whatever whatever that's in a pre

339
00:12:54,070 --> 00:12:52,250
it to the extreme that strikes me you've

340
00:12:56,650 --> 00:12:54,080
been profoundly inappropriate behavior

341
00:12:58,690 --> 00:12:56,660
yeah but anyway so they'll be regulating

342
00:13:00,070 --> 00:12:58,700
things like propriety and you know yeah

343
00:13:02,410 --> 00:13:00,080
I think there's something about sort of

344
00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:02,420
you know not telling patients to to

345
00:13:05,230 --> 00:13:03,860
throw away their medical drugs which is

346
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:05,240
nice and everything but the one thing

347
00:13:10,510 --> 00:13:07,450
that they're not looking at is is

348
00:13:12,340 --> 00:13:10,520
efficacy which which kind of throws you

349
00:13:14,350 --> 00:13:12,350
into a slightly alice in wonderland

350
00:13:15,850 --> 00:13:14,360
scenario really because they'll you know

351
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:15,860
I don't know there's a really funny

352
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:18,290
website called The Daily mash which you

353
00:13:22,690 --> 00:13:20,240
might have seen I read the link that you

354
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:22,700
yeah but you so that Lena that was

355
00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:25,250
hilarious complimentary therapists to be

356
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:28,790
regulated by which doctor yeah and and I

357
00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:30,410
think that's pretty much how it is you

358
00:13:33,460 --> 00:13:32,030
know the witch doctor stress the

359
00:13:35,050 --> 00:13:33,470
therapist will be judged not on the

360
00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:35,060
effectiveness of their treatments but on

361
00:13:38,950 --> 00:13:37,550
the strength of their Mogambo there are

362
00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:38,960
many frauds and not everyone has a

363
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,520
stronger connection to the serpent god

364
00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:42,320
damn baller as they like to make out and

365
00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:44,060
you know I think it's gonna I think it's

366
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:45,590
gonna be a bit like that if he throws

367
00:13:49,420 --> 00:13:46,880
chicken bones on the floor of your

368
00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:49,430
surgery and or your own clinic and he

369
00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:50,600
comes back the following week and

370
00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:52,040
they're still there he'll see you for

371
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:53,630
health and safety or something like that

372
00:14:00,190 --> 00:13:56,090
that was very funny out of your luxury I

373
00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:00,200
see nch me and they said that yeah all

374
00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:01,670
applicants will be judged on four key

375
00:14:06,930 --> 00:14:04,820
elements earth fire water and the age of

376
00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:06,940
the magazines in there waiting room

377
00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:09,500
anyway other girls just truly funnier

378
00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:11,870
than ours so last year you were actually

379
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:14,360
sued been you and the Guardian was sued

380
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:17,210
for libel by an HIV denier Matthias

381
00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:20,930
wrath yeah I did a few HIV denier I

382
00:14:27,310 --> 00:14:23,260
don't but he certainly says that his

383
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:27,320
that his vitamin pills are you know an

384
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:29,570
effective treatment for HIV and he he he

385
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:32,720
was a he was a worrying figure because

386
00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:35,330
he went to South Africa and started

387
00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:38,180
taking out full page advert in national

388
00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:41,000
newspapers saying that and you know

389
00:14:46,670 --> 00:14:43,310
anti-aids drugs will kill you it's a

390
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:46,680
conspiracy by the pharmaceutical cartel

391
00:14:50,829 --> 00:14:48,690
and the answer to the AIDS epidemic with

392
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:50,839
is here and unsurprisingly that was

393
00:14:57,860 --> 00:14:55,170
vitamin pills and I perhaps

394
00:14:59,240 --> 00:14:57,870
unsurprisingly and I kind of pointed out

395
00:15:02,210 --> 00:14:59,250
that this was really seriously a

396
00:15:05,810 --> 00:15:02,220
responsible because South Africa is a

397
00:15:08,449 --> 00:15:05,820
country where and you know that yeah I

398
00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:08,459
don't know I mean AIDS is is just aids

399
00:15:12,139 --> 00:15:09,990
is nuts you know AIDS is like the

400
00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:12,149
opposite of anecdote it's it's the

401
00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:13,950
numbers involved is so big that it's

402
00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:15,060
actually quite hard to get your head

403
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:17,430
round I think and I and I wonder if if

404
00:15:23,090 --> 00:15:19,890
that's why people sort of can allow

405
00:15:26,449 --> 00:15:23,100
themselves to to go down such sort of

406
00:15:31,130 --> 00:15:26,459
dodgy roads they're 25 million people

407
00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:31,140
have died so far from AIDS and three

408
00:15:37,130 --> 00:15:33,140
million of those were in the last year

409
00:15:39,889 --> 00:15:37,140
in South Africa alone I think it's three

410
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:39,899
hundred thousand people every year which

411
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:44,399
is 800 every day you know 6.3 million

412
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:46,770
South Africans are HIV positive it's

413
00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:48,990
just nuts you know 1.2 million AIDS

414
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:51,300
orphans in South Africa and it and it

415
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:52,770
happened in the twinkling of an eye you

416
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:54,120
know I mean in nineteen ninety-one

417
00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:56,250
percent of adults in South Africa are

418
00:16:00,829 --> 00:15:58,410
hiv-positive and now it's a quarter and

419
00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:00,839
so hang while we were watching you know

420
00:16:05,510 --> 00:16:03,150
and it happened under president thabo

421
00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:05,520
and Becky who is obviously an AIDS

422
00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:08,820
denialist with taba and Becky at various

423
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:11,160
points has sort of said you know HIV

424
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:13,440
isn't the cause of AIDS antiretroviral

425
00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:14,910
drugs aren't an effective treatment for

426
00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:17,640
AIDS as South African government refused

427
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:19,950
free gifts of AIDS drugs to prevent

428
00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:22,950
maternal transmission they refused money

429
00:16:26,690 --> 00:16:25,350
to buy AIDS drugs with they refused to

430
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:26,700
roll out antiretroviral treatment

431
00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:30,450
because they had this bonkers sort of

432
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:32,790
fantastical pseudoscientific HIV

433
00:16:37,310 --> 00:16:34,890
denialist belief system going on and at

434
00:16:39,530 --> 00:16:37,320
the same time is Health Minister Manto's

435
00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:39,540
Chapel our land tamang presiding over a

436
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:41,190
country where 300,000 people were dying

437
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:43,770
about every year was going on television

438
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:46,050
saying the african sweet potato and

439
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:48,360
garlic were the most effective

440
00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:51,570
treatments for AIDS at the toronto world

441
00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:52,920
aids conference a couple of years ago

442
00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:55,230
the South African government stall was

443
00:16:59,360 --> 00:16:57,240
called the vegetable stall by other than

444
00:17:01,790 --> 00:16:59,370
other participants at the conference

445
00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:01,800
and it consisted of sweet african potato

446
00:17:08,299 --> 00:17:05,790
garlic a couple of other fruit bits of

447
00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:08,309
fruit veg and they didn't have any age

448
00:17:10,910 --> 00:17:09,660
drugs there at all and then somebody

449
00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:10,920
sort of mentioned that this was

450
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:12,360
embarrassing and they borrowed some off

451
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:14,100
another delicate and just sort of put in

452
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:17,490
table and he's so bizarre and somebody

453
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,220
somebody asked manto on this sort of on

454
00:17:24,290 --> 00:17:23,100
television and she said what when

455
00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:24,300
somebody tells me that they've got

456
00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:26,130
better on sweet african potato am I

457
00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:27,900
supposed to not believe them should I go

458
00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:30,540
and do science on them and so you know

459
00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:32,520
this was pretty far our staff and it's

460
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,140
the kind of far-out nonsense that you're

461
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:36,480
used to reading on you know in kind of

462
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:38,370
bonkers alternative therapy magazines

463
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:40,530
and stuff yeah but South Africa was a

464
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:42,330
country in which this level of

465
00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:45,080
foolishness was was not just sort of

466
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:47,309
institutionalized it was acted on you

467
00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:48,720
know they didn't roll out proper

468
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:51,660
antiretroviral treatment Mathias wrath

469
00:17:55,790 --> 00:17:54,600
who is a Western vitamin pill salesman I

470
00:17:57,919 --> 00:17:55,800
mean that's a really important thing to

471
00:18:00,350 --> 00:17:57,929
understand is that he is he is made in

472
00:18:02,090 --> 00:18:00,360
Europe he is one of ours you know he we

473
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,100
take full responsibility for this man

474
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:04,320
you know he was German he built up his

475
00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:06,540
vitamin pill Empire there then he went

476
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:09,480
to America you know and and he used all

477
00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:11,970
of the exact same sort of distortions of

478
00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:13,830
evidence that the other nutritionists

479
00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:16,470
that were familiar with use but then he

480
00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:20,630
went to South Africa and he did sort of

481
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:24,750
trials of his ideas in khayelitsha

482
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:25,890
province which were subsequently

483
00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:30,240
declared illegal and and he took out

484
00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:32,070
these full page adverts and he ran

485
00:18:38,419 --> 00:18:34,800
clinics and you know it's all tragic and

486
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,429
his right-hand man Anthony brung it's a

487
00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:40,559
boasts that he introduced thabo mbeki

488
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:42,870
too many of the central tenets of HIV

489
00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:46,110
denialism and so take a bow and he brung

490
00:18:51,740 --> 00:18:48,660
Anthony brung is actually so far out

491
00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:51,750
that he is hateful on fruit cake right

492
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:54,270
that you refer to in your book well i

493
00:18:59,240 --> 00:18:56,910
mean there's a guy so the only two

494
00:19:01,820 --> 00:18:59,250
people campaigning against this lunacy

495
00:19:03,650 --> 00:19:01,830
in south africa we're an organization

496
00:19:09,169 --> 00:19:03,660
called tack the treatment action

497
00:19:11,330 --> 00:19:09,179
campaign and now tak a run by a guy

498
00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:11,340
called Zaki h map but i mean you know

499
00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:13,230
they're a grassroots organization 98

500
00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:14,790
sent black women from townships and

501
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:16,049
they're amazing and if anybody ever

502
00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:17,490
wanted to give anyone money they should

503
00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:21,270
give it to tak they run a battle really

504
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:23,460
on kind of forefront there and they're

505
00:19:27,169 --> 00:19:25,410
fighting against the stupidity of their

506
00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:27,179
own government who refused to roll out

507
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:29,070
antiretroviral treatment they're

508
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:33,360
fighting against the pharmacy school

509
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:35,640
corporations who refuse to give drugs

510
00:19:40,190 --> 00:19:38,250
off copyright you know at cheap

511
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:40,200
discounted rates to developing countries

512
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:42,570
to treat AIDS because they say they need

513
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:44,010
the full price in order to fund research

514
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:45,690
and development which is blatantly

515
00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:48,510
bollocks I mean you know the global

516
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:49,950
takings of the pharmaceutical industry

517
00:19:54,140 --> 00:19:51,780
is about five or six hundred billion

518
00:19:58,100 --> 00:19:54,150
dollars a year and of that they spend

519
00:20:00,590 --> 00:19:58,110
twice as much on on promotion and

520
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:00,600
advertising as they do on research and

521
00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:01,890
development it's about thirty four

522
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:03,780
percent against seventeen percent so

523
00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:06,809
that's clearly [\h__\h] they don't need to

524
00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:08,460
get full price to people in developing

525
00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:10,049
world countries for their AIDS drugs and

526
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,940
then so they're fighting against them

527
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,440
and sort of trying to force their own

528
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,600
country to use the Doha declaration to

529
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:17,280
get discounts on drugs and that sort of

530
00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:19,530
thing then they're fighting against

531
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:20,940
ignorance in their own country and

532
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:22,799
running treatment literacy groups and

533
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:24,090
all that kind of really sort of right on

534
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:26,130
grassroots stuff and finally they're

535
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:27,600
fighting against people like Mateus

536
00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:30,330
wrath and Matthias raft didn't like the

537
00:20:32,659 --> 00:20:31,380
fact they were fighting against I mean

538
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,669
neither did Anthony brung who's no

539
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:34,559
longer Mathias Russ right-hand man

540
00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:38,880
Antony brung made this bizarre I suppose

541
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:40,049
that this might have been what you refer

542
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:41,960
to you as he broke my this bizarre

543
00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:46,530
allegation a bizarre and so eat it's

544
00:20:50,030 --> 00:20:48,600
hard to get your head around quiet how

545
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:50,040
well-connected and seeing you these

546
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:51,450
people are you know this is a country

547
00:20:56,539 --> 00:20:54,090
where ridiculous ideas go to the top of

548
00:20:58,490 --> 00:20:56,549
government and Anthony brung isn't just

549
00:21:00,590 --> 00:20:58,500
some random joe anthony bronc is a

550
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:00,600
barrister and you know he's an

551
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:03,840
influential chat and he made a like a

552
00:21:08,539 --> 00:21:06,690
formal arraignment complaint ii thing to

553
00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:08,549
the international criminal court at the

554
00:21:13,789 --> 00:21:12,270
hague at that exact eh matt the head of

555
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,799
the treatment action campaign and this

556
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:15,600
was reported as a serious news story in

557
00:21:20,539 --> 00:21:18,480
the in the south african news media and

558
00:21:21,770 --> 00:21:20,549
in some parts of the Western gay press

559
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:21,780
actually and I don't think any of those

560
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:24,240
people can have read through to the end

561
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:26,210
of the document i can probably and

562
00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:28,250
if I mock about him probably bring up

563
00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:30,500
here actually and tell you the the

564
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:33,020
finale really is quite spectacular heaps

565
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:36,050
of their 68 pages where he goes through

566
00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:39,770
all of the things which and you know

567
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:41,900
sort of a bear are you yeah cuz not

568
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,930
since you say films in your book been

569
00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:46,640
you say that most people wouldn't most

570
00:21:51,670 --> 00:21:48,190
journalists didn't get to that page

571
00:21:53,290 --> 00:21:51,680
where you know piece of really full-on

572
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:53,300
fruitcake as you described it in bad

573
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:55,970
science let me read you what he said so

574
00:21:59,500 --> 00:21:58,250
so Zach eh Matt just for background

575
00:22:00,970 --> 00:21:59,510
right Zach yes Matt who runs the

576
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:00,980
treatment action campaign closest thing

577
00:22:05,410 --> 00:22:03,710
I've got to a hero and burned down his

578
00:22:08,860 --> 00:22:05,420
own school at the age of 12 and you

579
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:08,870
would have been him colored chap by the

580
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:12,110
by the sort of nomenclature of the South

581
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:15,530
African apartheid system at the time he

582
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:18,320
was arrested under that regime and and

583
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:21,290
that brutal and violent regime with

584
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:23,690
everything that that entails you know

585
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:27,710
he's also gay he's also HIV positive he

586
00:22:31,930 --> 00:22:29,690
also developed full-blown AIDS refused

587
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:31,940
to take antiretroviral drugs even though

588
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:34,070
Nelson Mandela personally begged him

589
00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:35,930
because he said that he wouldn't take

590
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:38,870
him until they were available more

591
00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:42,260
widely within the country so he's just

592
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:45,380
about alive now and this is what Anthony

593
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:47,150
brung wrote was an appropriate

594
00:22:51,370 --> 00:22:49,190
punishment for him this is I'm reading

595
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:51,380
from the document that Anthony Brunson

596
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:53,690
in view of the scale and gravity of H

597
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:55,370
max crime and his direct personal

598
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:57,050
criminal culpability for the deaths of

599
00:23:00,370 --> 00:22:59,120
thousands of people it is respectfully

600
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:00,380
submitted that the international

601
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:01,670
criminal court ought to impose on him

602
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,290
her sentence provided the world around

603
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:05,360
statute blah blah blah namely to

604
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:07,430
permanent confinement in a small white

605
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:09,650
steel and concrete cage bright

606
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:11,570
fluorescent light on all the time to

607
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:13,520
keep an eye on him he's waters putting

608
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:15,170
him out only to work every day in the

609
00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:17,450
prison garden to cultivate nutrient-rich

610
00:23:22,810 --> 00:23:20,200
vegetables including when it's raining

611
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:22,820
in order for him to repay his debt to

612
00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:25,130
society with the ARVs he claimed the

613
00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:26,870
antiretroviral drugs he claims to take

614
00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:28,670
administered daily under close medical

615
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:30,440
watch at the full prescribed dose

616
00:23:33,670 --> 00:23:31,700
morning noon and night without

617
00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:33,680
interruption to prevent him faking that

618
00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:35,780
he's being treatment compliant pushed if

619
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:38,300
necessary down his forced open gullet

620
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:39,770
you know the finger

621
00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:42,110
if he bites kicks and screams too much

622
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:44,420
dripped into his arm after he's been

623
00:23:49,630 --> 00:23:46,970
restrained on a gurney with cable ties

624
00:23:52,150 --> 00:23:49,640
around his ankles wrists and neck until

625
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:52,160
he gives up the ghost on them so as to

626
00:23:56,590 --> 00:23:54,370
eradicate this foul list most loathsome

627
00:23:59,230 --> 00:23:56,600
unscrupulous and malevolent blight on

628
00:24:02,290 --> 00:23:59,240
the human race now what I find it

629
00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:02,300
straordinario about that apart from the

630
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:04,580
fact that is pretty vile well it's it's

631
00:24:07,690 --> 00:24:06,230
incredibly violent when I read it in

632
00:24:09,370 --> 00:24:07,700
your book I was really shocked that

633
00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:09,380
there that had actually been missed by

634
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:11,960
the media for a start but it's it's

635
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:15,290
incredibly it's always despicable really

636
00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:17,840
it is especially for somebody with a

637
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:20,060
history like Zaki what I find more

638
00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:22,310
interesting about it is that you know

639
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,200
doctors criticize other doctors and

640
00:24:28,420 --> 00:24:26,240
academics criticize other academics

641
00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:28,430
that's that's what we do for a living

642
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:30,230
you know that's you know I mean I'm sure

643
00:24:33,370 --> 00:24:32,150
you will have been to conferences where

644
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:33,380
you know at the end of somebody

645
00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:34,970
presenting their paper somebody sort of

646
00:24:38,230 --> 00:24:36,620
asked it's devastating question and you

647
00:24:39,790 --> 00:24:38,240
know this harsh but you know that but

648
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:39,800
you know that's how it is you know

649
00:24:44,740 --> 00:24:42,110
that's how science moves forward that

650
00:24:46,810 --> 00:24:44,750
excelling we learn and and you know

651
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:46,820
politicians criticize other politicians

652
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:50,000
but you know Matthias wrath and Anthony

653
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:52,970
brung is one time right hand man they

654
00:25:00,460 --> 00:24:55,730
are leaders in the field of alternative

655
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:00,470
therapy and not one single person from

656
00:25:06,850 --> 00:25:04,370
that community has seen fit despite

657
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:06,860
everything that we've discussed not one

658
00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:09,290
single person from that alternative

659
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:11,390
therapy in nutrition therapist community

660
00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:15,050
worldwide has had the decency or the

661
00:25:20,830 --> 00:25:17,720
balls to stand up and say something

662
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:20,840
about these activities in South Africa

663
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:24,080
and that to me to be honest is is really

664
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,570
very very seriously beneath contempt

665
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:28,400
because there are bad things happening

666
00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:30,860
in medicine and academia but people talk

667
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:32,870
about them people criticize them you

668
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:35,390
know and in in the world of alternative

669
00:25:40,660 --> 00:25:37,480
therapies you can be as far out as

670
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:40,670
Matthias wrath mentally brung and nobody

671
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:42,799
will say a word

672
00:25:50,059 --> 00:25:47,039
and so ends part 1 of our interview with

673
00:25:52,129 --> 00:25:50,069
dr. ben goldacre join us next time when

674
00:25:53,929 --> 00:25:52,139
ben reveals all the details about the

675
00:25:55,759 --> 00:25:53,939
outcome of the libel case brought

676
00:25:58,879 --> 00:25:55,769
against himself and the guardian by

677
00:26:00,769 --> 00:25:58,889
matthias wrath and also why his critics

678
00:26:03,199 --> 00:26:00,779
can't pin the big pharma stooge on him

679
00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:03,209
but not for lack of trying see you in a

680
00:26:16,819 --> 00:26:14,849
fortnight's owners hi phil plait from

681
00:26:19,129 --> 00:26:16,829
Bad Astronomy calm and the James Randi

682
00:26:20,779 --> 00:26:19,139
Educational Foundation here if you want

683
00:26:23,389 --> 00:26:20,789
to get an American take on things like

684
00:26:25,489 --> 00:26:23,399
moon hoaxers astrology chiropractors

685
00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:25,499
creationists anti-vaxxers global warming

686
00:26:29,209 --> 00:26:27,329
denialists homeopath psychics UFO

687
00:26:33,019 --> 00:26:29,219
believers and doom Criers of any flavor

688
00:26:36,169 --> 00:26:33,029
then go to bad astronomy calm Randy org

689
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:36,179
or skeptic blog org and there you'll be

690
00:26:39,949 --> 00:26:38,159
able to read me ranting railing frothing

691
00:26:42,439 --> 00:26:39,959
and foaming about hoaxes nonsense

692
00:26:55,690 --> 00:26:42,449
pseudoscience anti science and anyone

693
00:27:00,170 --> 00:26:58,190
well here we are beautiful coogee beach

694
00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:00,180
here in Sydney and I'm here with dr.

695
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:03,480
Steve Roberts hi Steve hi and dr. Rachel

696
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,810
don't love pirates it and we are sort of

697
00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:08,640
on the promenade here at the beach

698
00:27:15,170 --> 00:27:11,940
looking across the sand up to a hill

699
00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:15,180
where is the famous holy post behold the

700
00:27:20,030 --> 00:27:17,430
Holy post well there's not much to

701
00:27:22,010 --> 00:27:20,040
behold at the moment because this posted

702
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:22,020
at certain times of the day a few years

703
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:26,340
ago would cast a shadow and the post in

704
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:28,320
the distance and the shadow or combined

705
00:27:33,290 --> 00:27:30,090
it sort of made a figure that look sort

706
00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:33,300
of vaguely like a human and you know in

707
00:27:37,250 --> 00:27:35,220
a robe or something like that of course

708
00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:37,260
some local took it to mean it was the

709
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:40,590
mother Mary yeah but can I just

710
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:43,530
emphasize which it is a fence post okay

711
00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:46,410
when you say the Holy post it is part of

712
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:50,340
a fence like a figure bent over in love

713
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:52,650
in prayer or in supplication but it just

714
00:27:56,810 --> 00:27:55,260
well as what it is yeah yeah I was more

715
00:28:00,080 --> 00:27:56,820
like Mary Magdalene of the Virgin Mary

716
00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:00,090
actually that's because Micah posts than

717
00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:01,830
anything I well this was like a person

718
00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:04,830
somebody some nut came along at some

719
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:06,600
stage and wrecked it and when the

720
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:08,370
council put the post and the fence back

721
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:10,410
together the illusion was gone because

722
00:28:15,230 --> 00:28:11,970
it was just one of those things whether

723
00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:15,240
it was just an right aspect than all the

724
00:28:19,250 --> 00:28:17,430
rest of it but it attracted thousands

725
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:19,260
and thousands of people pilgrims came

726
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:21,900
from everywhere there were queues and

727
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:26,450
kids of people here it was in 2003 Oh

728
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:28,770
about then I think you yeah it was a

729
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:31,020
while ago but I know that the locals

730
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:32,820
became very fed up because the place was

731
00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:35,220
just flooded with them pilgrims standing

732
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:37,230
around looking at this fence anyway

733
00:28:42,770 --> 00:28:40,500
we're about a good 50 or 60 metres away

734
00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:42,780
from it at the moment maybe 100 meters

735
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:44,670
so we'll wander up and have a close look

736
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:54,080
we've now come up to the little clip

737
00:28:59,540 --> 00:28:57,290
area above coogee beach you're beautiful

738
00:29:01,490 --> 00:28:59,550
crystal-clear water though right so day

739
00:29:02,810 --> 00:29:01,500
it's beautiful it you can see all the

740
00:29:03,779 --> 00:29:02,820
way to the bottom it's absolutely

741
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:03,789
gorgeous

742
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:05,919
and we've come along here we're

743
00:29:13,019 --> 00:29:08,350
following the fence alone the fence line

744
00:29:14,369 --> 00:29:13,029
along and here we are a very spot now

745
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:14,379
what do we have here with a little

746
00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:17,710
garden full of flowers we've got some

747
00:29:24,779 --> 00:29:20,200
old clippings from newspapers dating

748
00:29:28,769 --> 00:29:24,789
back to whenever it was three two

749
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:28,779
thousand or 31st manifestations in the

750
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:30,970
clouds over the Philippines and so on a

751
00:29:37,289 --> 00:29:34,960
picture of God presumably there some old

752
00:29:40,859 --> 00:29:37,299
bloke with a beard a little it's a

753
00:29:43,289 --> 00:29:40,869
little blue plastic container screwed

754
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:43,299
onto the side of the fence it says holy

755
00:29:51,239 --> 00:29:47,200
water yes and something here it says six

756
00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:51,249
year anniversary from apparition Mary

757
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:53,889
Queen of Heaven and Earth and then feast

758
00:29:59,099 --> 00:29:57,039
and usually soft a fair we missed it we

759
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:59,109
missed the feast damn it was a whole

760
00:30:04,639 --> 00:30:01,840
feast there are little flowers is little

761
00:30:07,109 --> 00:30:04,649
staff and look a Christmas stuff tree

762
00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:07,119
ornament here attached to the fence or a

763
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:09,820
small paper very small fence and little

764
00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:14,070
late postcards of various religious I

765
00:30:20,399 --> 00:30:18,460
take it that's Mary or somebody little

766
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:20,409
children pray and seek the will of God

767
00:30:28,919 --> 00:30:26,289
in your life yeah lots of little cards

768
00:30:31,229 --> 00:30:28,929
it's like some sort of there's Jesus on

769
00:30:34,619 --> 00:30:31,239
a card with these heart pointing and

770
00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:34,629
he's part merciful Jesus it says and all

771
00:30:38,729 --> 00:30:36,190
the rest of them essentially each other

772
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:38,739
to try it now isn't it desert so it's a

773
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:40,450
small shrine someone's planted a little

774
00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:42,940
garden here and we've got a lantern with

775
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:44,710
a tealight candle in it that I guess

776
00:30:48,269 --> 00:30:46,570
someone comes in lights occasionally you

777
00:30:49,859 --> 00:30:48,279
I do love the holy water container

778
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:49,869
because someone's written holy water in

779
00:30:59,320 --> 00:30:57,850
really it's a nice seems too well for

780
00:31:01,540 --> 00:30:59,330
the Virgin Mary to look out of suppose

781
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:01,550
here I remember that one of the comments

782
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:02,720
at the time when they were interviewing

783
00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:05,930
some women on older women here he said I

784
00:31:10,330 --> 00:31:08,780
yes darling the mother marries come to

785
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:10,340
appear here to tell the women to cover

786
00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:14,559
up their their best yeah I'm serious

787
00:31:20,350 --> 00:31:17,420
this is a list of the shadow of a fence

788
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:20,360
post yeah there's a picture of what we

789
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:21,710
were looking at before but in its heyday

790
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:24,110
Steve yeah you can clearly see well

791
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:26,990
that's that's the effect the area their

792
00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:30,320
shadows make the EM that's a very bad

793
00:31:35,169 --> 00:31:32,150
illusion i must say look we'll put a bit

794
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:35,179
some pictures up on flickr folks you go

795
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:39,010
to ww skeptic zone TV and click our

796
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:41,390
photographs link there are some bushes

797
00:31:45,730 --> 00:31:44,090
behind as a teenage here in fact i'm up

798
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:45,740
and it will be a bit of a hoot would be

799
00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:48,320
less in white robes and here at the most

800
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:50,630
taste as possible time Rachel's taking a

801
00:31:55,810 --> 00:31:52,880
photograph but now rusty but as we talk

802
00:31:57,430 --> 00:31:55,820
look out so swimming toxin if you want

803
00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:57,440
one to know how we do these recordings

804
00:32:03,280 --> 00:31:58,940
you can look at our pick a site and

805
00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:03,290
she's taking it right now gosh and we're

806
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:05,030
the shade of you over the Hans did it

807
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:08,330
work oh it worked all right well from

808
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:11,570
beautiful coogee beach where we can't

809
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:13,450
see in the apparitions at the moment

810
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:17,390
this is a Richard Saunders dr. Rachel

811
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:19,730
thanks Richard and dr. Steve Roberts

812
00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:36,170
signing off from the Holy post yeah hi

813
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:38,460
I'm Theo Clark host and producer the

814
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:41,370
podcast hunting humbug 101 each week I'm

815
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,530
joined by my father Jeff Clark and we

816
00:32:47,420 --> 00:32:45,360
discuss a particular logical fallacy

817
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:47,430
with real-life examples of fallacies

818
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:48,960
from pseudo science science

819
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:51,330
misconceptions politics philosophy and

820
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:54,720
the media hacking humbug 101 is a

821
00:32:59,210 --> 00:32:57,450
companion podcast to our book humbug the

822
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,220
skeptics field guide to spotting

823
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:01,440
fallacies in thinking you can download

824
00:33:06,140 --> 00:33:04,110
them and subscribe to our podcast obtain

825
00:33:08,390 --> 00:33:06,150
a free copy of the ebook version of our

826
00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:08,400
book humbug and see many more real

827
00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:10,620
examples of fallacious reasoning at our

828
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:16,700
website wwc upticks field guard dot net

829
00:33:38,270 --> 00:33:36,080
peterb outage otherwise known as red

830
00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:38,280
bags is the current New South Wales

831
00:33:44,810 --> 00:33:41,340
president of Australian skeptics he is a

832
00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:44,820
long time crusader against quackery and

833
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:47,790
about a year ago I went to his place sat

834
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:49,860
in his backyard and recorded this

835
00:33:55,990 --> 00:33:51,809
interview now if you want to see this

836
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:56,000
interview you can go to ww tank vodcast

837
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:00,059
wordpress com or you could go to youtube

838
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:04,080
and type in reits up our I EDSA and

839
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:07,290
you'll find the interview but let's go

840
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:13,770
now to the backyard of rat bags well i'm

841
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:16,290
here with peter bowditch and cody the

842
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:20,520
dog hello and and and Thank You Cody and

843
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:22,290
another dog Oh Peter what can you tell

844
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:24,210
me about this dog here well this dog

845
00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:27,240
this is an acupuncture model dog and it

846
00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:28,919
has honored all the poor acupuncture

847
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:31,260
points for treating dog illnesses it's

848
00:34:34,369 --> 00:34:32,310
like for those people listening it's

849
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:34,379
like a little plastic model half of

850
00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:36,210
which looks like a real dog and if you

851
00:34:40,099 --> 00:34:38,460
turn it around it's the insights but the

852
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:40,109
insides of the dog it's like one of

853
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:42,000
those models you might see in a doctor

854
00:34:46,820 --> 00:34:44,760
surgery that's right yes and it has mark

855
00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:46,830
on it fear is echo puncture point which

856
00:34:50,570 --> 00:34:48,540
you use for treating certain places now

857
00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:50,580
one of the ones I like this just

858
00:34:55,490 --> 00:34:52,710
positively bit my thirst or there's a

859
00:34:57,599 --> 00:34:55,500
point down there on the tile yeah and

860
00:35:00,120 --> 00:34:57,609
it's called we gr

861
00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:00,130
only point on the body and that point is

862
00:35:04,829 --> 00:35:02,440
used for treating stroke sunstroke and

863
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,839
gastroenteritis on the tail on the tail

864
00:35:09,779 --> 00:35:06,480
yeah you could move them to that point

865
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:09,789
now this worried be a bit because what

866
00:35:14,609 --> 00:35:11,200
happens for to say bull dogs that have

867
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:14,619
no tail or dog who had their tails cut

868
00:35:18,690 --> 00:35:17,049
off hmm they used to be a practice in

869
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:18,700
Australia of docking dogs tails for

870
00:35:23,099 --> 00:35:21,249
showing but what do you do to this dot

871
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:23,109
poor dog if it suffers from stroke and

872
00:35:26,970 --> 00:35:25,420
you've cut off the acupuncture point

873
00:35:29,249 --> 00:35:26,980
that you use for treating it well it

874
00:35:31,319 --> 00:35:29,259
turns out there isn't a problem because

875
00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:31,329
there are many many places on the dog

876
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:33,190
where you can treat the stroke oh really

877
00:35:38,309 --> 00:35:36,700
I notices one even here on oh yeah lots

878
00:35:39,359 --> 00:35:38,319
of point they were several but they're

879
00:35:41,069 --> 00:35:39,369
there as well there's one other point

880
00:35:42,210 --> 00:35:41,079
for gastroenteritis and I think it's

881
00:35:43,979 --> 00:35:42,220
that one there but I'd have to go and

882
00:35:46,170 --> 00:35:43,989
look up the book find out was that about

883
00:35:49,220 --> 00:35:46,180
midway I did way there so if you know

884
00:35:51,749 --> 00:35:49,230
the nearly hips into the hips yeah so

885
00:35:54,089 --> 00:35:51,759
with this model and a set of

886
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:54,099
instructions that I got ah and you've

887
00:35:57,420 --> 00:35:55,690
got this in Hong Kong did you I bought

888
00:35:59,640 --> 00:35:57,430
it actually I bought it on eBay be back

889
00:36:02,759 --> 00:35:59,650
why travel but anyway we'll do it for

890
00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:02,769
their yes it cost me what do you do

891
00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:05,140
dollars i mean a bag and i might get one

892
00:36:09,989 --> 00:36:08,140
before the bargain yeah and I also have

893
00:36:11,849 --> 00:36:09,999
a model of a man but that's far was fun

894
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:11,859
because everybody knows you can do

895
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:14,410
acupuncture on people but I was unaware

896
00:36:18,059 --> 00:36:16,089
you could do acupuncture on dogs but I'm

897
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:18,069
very good bullet please I've got this

898
00:36:23,249 --> 00:36:21,249
it's a dog with a proper dog face so it

899
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:23,259
looks like Cody so now i know how i can

900
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,079
truly mike and slave on Betsy's by doing

901
00:36:30,420 --> 00:36:28,720
my own noodling of Cody when he gets so

902
00:36:31,890 --> 00:36:30,430
maybe it works like a voodoo thing you

903
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:31,900
put the needles into this dog in your

904
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:34,960
real dog bear gets the benefit you think

905
00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:37,599
you're joking aren't I hope I'm joking

906
00:36:41,549 --> 00:36:39,670
there is a form of quackery called

907
00:36:44,849 --> 00:36:41,559
therapeutic touch that's like touch um

908
00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:44,859
touch field therapy touch field Ferris

909
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:47,230
field therapy where you tap on

910
00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:49,650
acupuncture points

911
00:36:56,190 --> 00:36:53,590
the cue people you can do this by remote

912
00:36:57,540 --> 00:36:56,200
control over the telephone however it

913
00:36:59,580 --> 00:36:57,550
cost you a hundred thousand dollars to

914
00:37:01,320 --> 00:36:59,590
do the training course and what you can

915
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:01,330
do you actually sit down with the model

916
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:03,580
dog and the other dog on the other of

917
00:37:07,770 --> 00:37:06,370
the telephone you could go tap the model

918
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:07,780
dog and the other dog on the other end

919
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:08,710
of the other phone gets all that they

920
00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:10,000
will get the benefit this is too

921
00:37:13,170 --> 00:37:11,470
remarkable order right through it is a

922
00:37:17,580 --> 00:37:13,180
remarkable thing it's a wonderful system

923
00:37:18,780 --> 00:37:17,590
thought field therapy there are lots are

924
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:18,790
those sorts of quackery things around

925
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:20,680
that was one which was just invented

926
00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:22,480
from whole cloth yeah some of the moon

927
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,100
around forever now for example this

928
00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:27,280
little box here oh I like this I we've

929
00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:29,380
we've discussed this setup of it but

930
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:31,870
this is a rife machine Wow as an audio

931
00:37:36,930 --> 00:37:33,490
frequency one so this does with audio

932
00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:36,940
frequency you can get ones that use of

933
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:40,390
magnetism and you can get ones that use

934
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:41,770
electric stimulation as well but this

935
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,710
one's an audio one and watch it's got 24

936
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:46,480
programs you turn it on and fortunately

937
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:48,130
doesn't like to us the flash you turn it

938
00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:50,290
on says on the properties you set the

939
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:52,540
program you want it for example program

940
00:38:01,860 --> 00:37:58,720
24 a program to cures aids program three

941
00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:01,870
it's different frequency cures cancer or

942
00:38:07,260 --> 00:38:05,470
cancer of course of course now these

943
00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:07,270
things were first can never work for a

944
00:38:13,980 --> 00:38:10,060
man called royal raymond rife in the

945
00:38:17,340 --> 00:38:13,990
1930s wife also invented a microscope

946
00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:17,350
and I've seen claims for up to 60,000

947
00:38:21,420 --> 00:38:19,000
times magnification with this optical

948
00:38:23,790 --> 00:38:21,430
microscope now it's interesting to note

949
00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:23,800
that if you go to carl zeiss it make

950
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:26,590
microscopes they will give you a

951
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:27,910
cellular microscope that will magnify to

952
00:38:33,450 --> 00:38:30,610
twelve hundred and fifty times the motto

953
00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:33,460
of Carl Zeus is limited only by the laws

954
00:38:38,190 --> 00:38:35,980
of physics well that was a really

955
00:38:40,290 --> 00:38:38,200
appropriate thing but right had a

956
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:40,300
microscope in the 1930s which could see

957
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:42,790
viruses and can magnify to sixty

958
00:38:47,340 --> 00:38:45,490
thousand times it looks scientific it

959
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:47,350
doesn't go under yeah someone said to me

960
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:50,410
once they said his machine out performed

961
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:52,060
the electron microscopes of the day I

962
00:38:55,290 --> 00:38:53,530
said well it was remarkable because they

963
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:55,300
would any as the first electron

964
00:38:58,410 --> 00:38:56,560
microscope was actually patent another

965
00:39:00,010 --> 00:38:58,420
right they certainly did outperform them

966
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:00,020
they did

967
00:39:05,350 --> 00:39:02,510
I have a the carrier's friend on the

968
00:39:06,910 --> 00:39:05,360
internet who was an acupuncturist apart

969
00:39:09,130 --> 00:39:06,920
from being an acupuncturist he is an

970
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:09,140
absolutely red-hot supporter of real

971
00:39:13,210 --> 00:39:11,390
medicine and totally down on all other

972
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:13,220
forms of quackery I shouldn't say all

973
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:15,530
other forms I got offended and he

974
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:16,880
actually a taxi but point out he

975
00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:18,320
actually says that he knows I don't

976
00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:21,920
believe him but he honestly believes he

977
00:39:26,650 --> 00:39:23,990
can help people but what he does say

978
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:26,660
there are things he doesn't treat he

979
00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:28,730
doesn't treat terminal illness he treats

980
00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:32,860
transient things sore backs nausea

981
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:36,740
things like that that go away anyway but

982
00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:38,090
here's an example here's a book called

983
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:41,780
the cure for HIV and AIDS oh wow this

984
00:39:47,140 --> 00:39:44,450
doesn't work yeah now the person who

985
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:47,150
wrote that book it does actually sell

986
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:48,290
one of those machines and I've got

987
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:51,800
Inquirer's here this is a genuine holder

988
00:39:56,290 --> 00:39:54,170
Clark Zappa you will notice that it says

989
00:39:57,460 --> 00:39:56,300
Jake are on the top but cars been

990
00:40:00,000 --> 00:39:57,470
blocked out they were trying to pretend

991
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:00,010
that this was a team made by JK JK is a

992
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:02,690
electronic electronics chain here in

993
00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:04,880
Australia it's got a picture the Space

994
00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:07,190
Shuttle on the 5th now the idea of this

995
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:08,750
is you hold the two little tubes and you

996
00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:10,310
turn it on this electric zapping comes

997
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:12,620
through and cures things this woman's

998
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:15,730
first book her name is holder Clark and

999
00:40:22,690 --> 00:40:18,410
she actually has a PhD she's a doctor

1000
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:22,700
she has a PhD in pelion time crab at

1001
00:40:28,540 --> 00:40:26,480
palio physiology at physiology I

1002
00:40:30,730 --> 00:40:28,550
actually said once that she had a PhD in

1003
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:30,740
crustacean physiology and I was accused

1004
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:33,200
of lying but one of her supporters are

1005
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:34,340
you going to get these ahead ranges that

1006
00:40:39,490 --> 00:40:37,040
because the word her parity thesis title

1007
00:40:42,670 --> 00:40:39,500
doesn't say crustacean the first book

1008
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:42,680
was called the cure for all diseases the

1009
00:40:48,730 --> 00:40:45,040
second book was called the cure for all

1010
00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:48,740
cancer the next book was called the cure

1011
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:50,390
for all advanced cancers now all have

1012
00:40:54,580 --> 00:40:52,250
thought that each of those books was

1013
00:40:57,550 --> 00:40:54,590
included in the prior one then she came

1014
00:40:59,470 --> 00:40:57,560
up with a cure for hiv/aids she has a

1015
00:41:02,200 --> 00:40:59,480
clinic in Tijuana which we were charging

1016
00:41:05,230 --> 00:41:02,210
fifteen thousand dollars a week to treat

1017
00:41:08,830 --> 00:41:05,240
people for AIDS I have been to this

1018
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:08,840
clinic it is in the sleaziest part of

1019
00:41:14,020 --> 00:41:11,210
Tijuana and for those of you who haven't

1020
00:41:16,330 --> 00:41:14,030
been to Tijuana the sleaziest part of

1021
00:41:18,610 --> 00:41:16,340
Tijuana cannot be described as you'd go

1022
00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:18,620
there because the best part of Tijuana

1023
00:41:24,310 --> 00:41:20,390
will be classed as a sludgy as part of

1024
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:24,320
Sydney it is not aid salubrious town but

1025
00:41:29,470 --> 00:41:26,660
I didn't see one single health food shop

1026
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:29,480
or one shop selling supplements or any

1027
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:31,850
homeopaths or any chiropractors but what

1028
00:41:35,610 --> 00:41:33,170
I did see you it's a normal number of

1029
00:41:37,890 --> 00:41:35,620
pharmacies selling legitimate

1030
00:41:41,470 --> 00:41:37,900
prescription drugs without prescriptions

1031
00:41:44,650 --> 00:41:41,480
the real genuine articles people drive

1032
00:41:47,530 --> 00:41:44,660
down from San Diego to Tijuana to buy

1033
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:47,540
their heart treatment their cholesterol

1034
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:49,760
medication their diabetes medication all

1035
00:41:54,310 --> 00:41:52,370
those sorts of things they all go there

1036
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:54,320
and they buy the real thing they don't

1037
00:41:59,410 --> 00:41:55,850
go and buy the fake ones when they're

1038
00:42:02,110 --> 00:41:59,420
available yeah another thing that I hear

1039
00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:02,120
quite a lot when I'm talking to these

1040
00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:05,960
sort of people these app is all these

1041
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:07,700
sort of things work because they work on

1042
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:09,410
the vibrations and we're all made out of

1043
00:42:14,050 --> 00:42:11,210
vibrations and I know that one's awesome

1044
00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:14,060
what they meant by that well I'm asking

1045
00:42:17,350 --> 00:42:15,830
you what do they think they mean when

1046
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:17,360
they say we're all made out of vibration

1047
00:42:22,030 --> 00:42:20,480
they don't really know they then it's

1048
00:42:23,230 --> 00:42:22,040
another by the other works they usually

1049
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:23,240
come Noah tell you that you need to

1050
00:42:27,850 --> 00:42:24,770
remove toxins from your body energy

1051
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:27,860
toxins vibrations and I always on which

1052
00:42:33,610 --> 00:42:31,280
toxins and they have no answer yeah when

1053
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:33,620
you say which vibrations they have no

1054
00:42:38,530 --> 00:42:36,650
answer to that either then yes we're all

1055
00:42:40,510 --> 00:42:38,540
vibrating at the quantum level are all

1056
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:40,520
shaking all over the place but that

1057
00:42:43,450 --> 00:42:41,690
doesn't mean one of those things plugged

1058
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:43,460
in internal certain frequency is going

1059
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:45,440
to kill things the principle that rife

1060
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,960
worked on was resonance and when you

1061
00:42:55,210 --> 00:42:52,880
think about it it's possible things

1062
00:42:57,610 --> 00:42:55,220
vibrate at a certain that your frequency

1063
00:42:58,870 --> 00:42:57,620
if you can get them to vibrate very hard

1064
00:43:00,460 --> 00:42:58,880
at that natural frequency they'll break

1065
00:43:03,490 --> 00:43:00,470
and it's Caruso singing and breaking the

1066
00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:03,500
wine glass it's the classic exam the

1067
00:43:07,390 --> 00:43:05,390
idea being that if you've got a bacteria

1068
00:43:09,580 --> 00:43:07,400
it will and you can get the vibrate at

1069
00:43:11,260 --> 00:43:09,590
the point where it destroys itself you

1070
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:11,270
can destroy them these things are being

1071
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:14,330
tested they don't work it's not a matter

1072
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:15,980
of

1073
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:18,250
totally impossible like some things are

1074
00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:20,390
so the people who push that no it

1075
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:22,430
doesn't work that's what I say I think

1076
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:24,190
that there are some people out there who

1077
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:27,170
seriously believe they I'm sure there

1078
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:28,850
are i'm sure that i was i was at the

1079
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:30,410
mind-body-spirit festival and there was

1080
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:33,520
a woman there who was a psychologist

1081
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:37,490
fully qualified psychologist clinical

1082
00:43:41,740 --> 00:43:39,170
psychologist and she had taken on a

1083
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:41,750
franchise for one of those machines she

1084
00:43:44,890 --> 00:43:43,040
would teach of course she thought she

1085
00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:44,900
could use it as mad a junk and what she

1086
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:46,670
was already doing to help of emotions

1087
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:49,130
right now in fact maybe what had

1088
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:50,480
patience did was just a good talking-to

1089
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:52,310
and so the psychology part of it was

1090
00:43:56,620 --> 00:43:54,650
working anyway yeah she was convinced

1091
00:44:00,220 --> 00:43:56,630
some solvent against her that this thing

1092
00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:00,230
would help and that she was perfectly

1093
00:44:04,210 --> 00:44:02,900
sincere about it the bus or other people

1094
00:44:06,190 --> 00:44:04,220
charging ninety dollars through an

1095
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:06,200
allergy test by poking a probe into your

1096
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:07,520
hand and make me go too deep and saying

1097
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:09,680
a you hold little glass bottle yeah a

1098
00:44:12,099 --> 00:44:10,910
bleep eight again so you're allergic to

1099
00:44:14,590 --> 00:44:12,109
this oh and by the way we've got the

1100
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:14,600
treatment for that if there'd they know

1101
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:16,970
what they're doing I have no doubt that

1102
00:44:21,580 --> 00:44:18,560
the boss of this book knows exactly what

1103
00:44:23,470 --> 00:44:21,590
she's doing yeah yeah she might appear

1104
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:23,480
to be nuts but she isn't now other

1105
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:25,130
people I think that probably know what

1106
00:44:29,830 --> 00:44:27,290
they're doing a large companies or who

1107
00:44:31,810 --> 00:44:29,840
produce these little pills here which

1108
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:31,820
are of course homeopathic these are

1109
00:44:37,780 --> 00:44:36,410
homeopathic sleeping tablets and they're

1110
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:37,790
basically what are they what they are

1111
00:44:43,410 --> 00:44:39,530
they contain the ingredients wonderful

1112
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:43,420
they contain 14c capsicum 3c chamomilla

1113
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:48,210
the sbarro like 4c coffee and 30c coffee

1114
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:51,330
they in that field there are two

1115
00:44:56,900 --> 00:44:53,130
different concentrations of the same

1116
00:44:59,060 --> 00:44:56,910
chemical if this is a fact unknown to

1117
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:59,070
most of science that you can take two

1118
00:45:01,579 --> 00:45:00,240
different concentrations of the same

1119
00:45:03,710 --> 00:45:01,589
chemical and mix them together and get

1120
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:03,720
and they stay separate the interesting

1121
00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:05,609
thing is that it doesn't say that that

1122
00:45:11,180 --> 00:45:08,760
is in fact 30c coffee it says contains

1123
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:11,190
equal parts off which means which means

1124
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:13,710
that it contained it could contain one

1125
00:45:18,170 --> 00:45:16,710
millionth of a gram there are what it

1126
00:45:22,579 --> 00:45:18,180
basically is a little tab full of

1127
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:22,589
lactose delicious before I was diagnosed

1128
00:45:27,230 --> 00:45:25,440
with diabetes like to stand on stage may

1129
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:27,240
four of these things before performance

1130
00:45:31,250 --> 00:45:29,010
in washing over the glass of red wine I

1131
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:31,260
still do the red wine but I believe that

1132
00:45:35,060 --> 00:45:32,970
my endocrinologist but advised me

1133
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:35,070
against having 24 Lugo's tablets or

1134
00:45:38,359 --> 00:45:36,420
lactose so I've another one like of

1135
00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:38,369
another muses sleep to hang up now

1136
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:40,230
here's another one yeah these were sent

1137
00:45:44,570 --> 00:45:43,170
to me by a homeopath this man challenged

1138
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:44,580
me he said that I didn't do nothing

1139
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:47,490
about homeopathy that I wasn't prepared

1140
00:45:51,380 --> 00:45:48,960
to learn anything about homeopathy and

1141
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:51,390
that i wouldn't try homeopathy and he

1142
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:52,560
said to me put your money where your

1143
00:45:56,780 --> 00:45:54,510
mouth is I says why don't you put your

1144
00:46:00,190 --> 00:45:56,790
money where my mouth is and send me some

1145
00:46:03,740 --> 00:46:00,200
pills so he did he said me these pills

1146
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:03,750
what they are is 203 belladonna and

1147
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:06,510
they're practically invisible smallest

1148
00:46:09,620 --> 00:46:08,130
pills I think I've ever seen I'll just

1149
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,630
put one on mine but actually what they

1150
00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:10,800
are at the hundreds and thousands like

1151
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:15,750
you put on the top of a cake 200 see

1152
00:46:24,530 --> 00:46:19,530
what 200 C means is that you take the

1153
00:46:30,589 --> 00:46:24,540
active ingredient belladonna and you

1154
00:46:33,380 --> 00:46:30,599
dilute it one part in 100 it down so you

1155
00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:33,390
take one gram of belladonna and ninety

1156
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:36,420
nine grams of something and you mix it

1157
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:38,940
all up then you take one gram of the

1158
00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:42,530
subsequent mixture and you mix that with

1159
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:46,020
99 grams of whatever it is you're making

1160
00:46:49,490 --> 00:46:47,970
in theory you do this but you see wreck

1161
00:46:51,859 --> 00:46:49,500
this doesn't happen can you do that two

1162
00:46:53,710 --> 00:46:51,869
hundred times yeah how long would that

1163
00:46:55,820 --> 00:46:53,720
take honestly it would take you forever

1164
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:55,830
what this set these are theirs are

1165
00:47:00,170 --> 00:46:57,210
hundreds and thousands there are dollar

1166
00:47:02,020 --> 00:47:00,180
16 a kilogram at Woolworth's even

1167
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:02,030
sugar if you buy them through a cake

1168
00:47:06,620 --> 00:47:05,490
decorating wholesaler I don't know how

1169
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:06,630
much they charge those little bottle of

1170
00:47:11,059 --> 00:47:08,609
25 tablets go all a bit it's not on

1171
00:47:12,109 --> 00:47:11,069
pro-rata basis he tells me to take them

1172
00:47:13,609 --> 00:47:12,119
i said i'm going to take a whole lot of

1173
00:47:16,250 --> 00:47:13,619
them in one go he said now you're going

1174
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:16,260
to take one per hour for 12 hours to get

1175
00:47:20,690 --> 00:47:18,569
the effect even through the night or

1176
00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:20,700
whatever so I didn't I got exactly the

1177
00:47:26,839 --> 00:47:22,349
effect i expected which is nothing at

1178
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:26,849
all according to my book a modern her

1179
00:47:30,170 --> 00:47:28,470
ball by mrs. maude group published in

1180
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:30,180
nineteen thirty which I use often

1181
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:31,859
against him pretend to know nothing

1182
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:34,050
about herbs it describes the effect of

1183
00:47:39,859 --> 00:47:35,940
belladonna which by the way is poison

1184
00:47:43,220 --> 00:47:39,869
now you tell me crazy this is deadly not

1185
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:43,230
change alright this is bad news this

1186
00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:46,440
stuff it causes sweating for to fainting

1187
00:47:50,299 --> 00:47:48,569
death and so forth I never had any of

1188
00:47:52,940 --> 00:47:50,309
those things what you talked about the

1189
00:47:56,180 --> 00:47:52,950
dilution I've got here a treatment for

1190
00:47:59,210 --> 00:47:56,190
hepatitis B it's 50 Miller 50 milliliter

1191
00:48:02,750 --> 00:47:59,220
bottle a couple of years ago people

1192
00:48:04,359 --> 00:48:02,760
putting out a vaccine act actions more

1193
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:04,369
appropriate this one is a meningococcal

1194
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:06,960
circuit overspend meningioma comunicado

1195
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:09,690
once I'm here that's water water and

1196
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:11,280
what they were doing was are putting out

1197
00:48:20,359 --> 00:48:16,290
a 200 C homeopathic preparation of this

1198
00:48:25,099 --> 00:48:20,369
vaccine and I said at the time that this

1199
00:48:27,620 --> 00:48:25,109
was fraud to make a 200 see what all

1200
00:48:29,539 --> 00:48:27,630
that size that bottle a size of 200 C

1201
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:29,549
homeopathic preparation would reproduce

1202
00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:33,839
a thousand liters a thousand liters of

1203
00:48:38,210 --> 00:48:35,880
wastewater produced that bond we've got

1204
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:38,220
a drought on that's very responsible now

1205
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,210
remember you've got to throw that away

1206
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:41,040
because it's and of course it's medical

1207
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:42,180
waste so it's gotta be treated properly

1208
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:43,680
hasn't it you can't just took it down

1209
00:48:48,589 --> 00:48:46,290
the drain in fact I actually calculated

1210
00:48:51,020 --> 00:48:48,599
at the time that to produce all of the

1211
00:48:52,099 --> 00:48:51,030
meningococcal vaccine for one year of

1212
00:48:55,130 --> 00:48:52,109
the program in Australia when they're

1213
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:55,140
giving away would have required to do it

1214
00:48:59,000 --> 00:48:57,210
homeopathic alee seventy percent of the

1215
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:59,010
water used to produce all the coca-cola

1216
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:01,440
consumed in Australia in 12 months who'd

1217
00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:02,730
read a lot of soft neck in this country

1218
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:04,950
give me the coca-cola and said whatever

1219
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:06,569
wonderful toys have we got down here oh

1220
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:09,390
you're all sorts of stuff finally to

1221
00:49:12,299 --> 00:49:10,930
wrap it up

1222
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:12,309
because we're running out of time a

1223
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:14,890
little bit mad true madness one of my

1224
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:16,930
favorite topics indeed yeah it's the any

1225
00:49:23,790 --> 00:49:19,210
vaccinations people the person who

1226
00:49:25,770 --> 00:49:23,800
produced this video has told me that all

1227
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:25,780
cases of shaken baby syndrome are caused

1228
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:28,569
by vaccines in fact she has told me that

1229
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:32,530
it is impossible impossible to term a

1230
00:49:36,839 --> 00:49:34,930
baby by shaking it and she claims of

1231
00:49:38,940 --> 00:49:36,849
scientific tests have been done with

1232
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:38,950
monkeys were they taken monkeys and

1233
00:49:43,170 --> 00:49:40,420
tried to shake them to death and they

1234
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:43,180
haven't been able to succeed another

1235
00:49:49,319 --> 00:49:46,569
little service this person offers is if

1236
00:49:51,329 --> 00:49:49,329
you want to travel to say Nigel in

1237
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:51,339
Africa and you want to come back to

1238
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:52,720
Australia you're required to have a

1239
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:54,490
yellow fever vaccination certificate

1240
00:49:58,740 --> 00:49:57,130
know very few not all doctors in

1241
00:50:01,319 --> 00:49:58,750
Australia can actually do vaccinations

1242
00:50:02,609 --> 00:50:01,329
for yellow fever they have to get a

1243
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:02,619
special license special certificate

1244
00:50:06,329 --> 00:50:03,910
certification the Federal Department of

1245
00:50:08,130 --> 00:50:06,339
Health this lady will put you in touch

1246
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:08,140
with a doctor who will give you a

1247
00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:09,490
certificate saying you've been

1248
00:50:13,859 --> 00:50:11,500
vaccinated against yellow fever when you

1249
00:50:18,930 --> 00:50:13,869
haven't and then you reach the point

1250
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:18,940
where any reasonable course or flow of

1251
00:50:22,410 --> 00:50:20,650
conversation simply breaks down these

1252
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:22,420
can't you just cannot book people like

1253
00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:24,400
that yeah once they start really play

1254
00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:25,569
hiding in a matter where they're totally

1255
00:50:30,809 --> 00:50:28,990
insane you can't do for example with the

1256
00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:30,819
polio I've been told that polio has not

1257
00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:33,790
gone it's still around it's just been

1258
00:50:37,650 --> 00:50:36,220
renowned as a septic meningitis when I

1259
00:50:40,559 --> 00:50:37,660
say well where are the iron lungs where

1260
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:40,569
the calipers on the kids I we were not

1261
00:50:44,130 --> 00:50:42,160
every class or didn't promise got had

1262
00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:44,140
kids that we had to allow for in games

1263
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:45,790
because they wobble because I had one

1264
00:50:50,190 --> 00:50:48,490
twisted league in calluses yeah well I'd

1265
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,200
my appendix out and I was very young I

1266
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:52,000
[\h__\h] in while the other people in the

1267
00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:54,250
hill dhryn hospital in the ward in the

1268
00:50:57,630 --> 00:50:56,319
hospital and children's ward was a girl

1269
00:51:00,180 --> 00:50:57,640
who was going to die in a lot and I on

1270
00:51:02,250 --> 00:51:00,190
lunch at polio now what I'm doing now

1271
00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:02,260
for the people viewing this episode I'm

1272
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:03,900
just putting up a photograph of Peter

1273
00:51:08,099 --> 00:51:06,790
inspecting an iron lung and it's the

1274
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:08,109
only place where you could really find

1275
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:09,910
one now in this country it's in a museum

1276
00:51:15,319 --> 00:51:12,490
that's right it's in a museum and that's

1277
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:15,329
the only place they should be yeah but

1278
00:51:20,130 --> 00:51:17,680
I've been told that it's still around or

1279
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:20,140
I want to know where it is I've also

1280
00:51:24,059 --> 00:51:22,450
been told that because there was one

1281
00:51:26,489 --> 00:51:24,069
batch of vaccines

1282
00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:26,499
is the Palio vaccination in 1956 that

1283
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:29,529
was contaminated that everybody who was

1284
00:51:33,870 --> 00:51:30,880
vaccinated by that has developed

1285
00:51:37,410 --> 00:51:33,880
medulloblastoma had died everybody well

1286
00:51:39,089 --> 00:51:37,420
I'm yeah I'm dead well I'm sure a lot of

1287
00:51:41,130 --> 00:51:39,099
people wish you were dead we're happy

1288
00:51:46,109 --> 00:51:41,140
you're not dead I encourage everybody to

1289
00:51:48,209 --> 00:51:46,119
go and visit w WX calm and of course

1290
00:51:49,979 --> 00:51:48,219
everybody watching this that will be in

1291
00:51:52,170 --> 00:51:49,989
total agreement with Peter but if in

1292
00:51:53,729 --> 00:51:52,180
case you're not you can send him hate

1293
00:51:55,890 --> 00:51:53,739
mail and I'm sure you'll be delighted to

1294
00:51:59,099 --> 00:51:55,900
read as I do now the one thing I like to

1295
00:52:00,689 --> 00:51:59,109
finish off with yes the big word in all

1296
00:52:03,359 --> 00:52:00,699
of alternative medicine is natural

1297
00:52:06,599 --> 00:52:03,369
natural everybody knows that natural is

1298
00:52:09,299 --> 00:52:06,609
good now leave aside that the world's

1299
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:09,309
most toxic substance bottlers and toxin

1300
00:52:12,359 --> 00:52:11,049
that stuff you inject into people's

1301
00:52:15,059 --> 00:52:12,369
faces so they talk funny when the

1302
00:52:16,739 --> 00:52:15,069
electors and the second most toxic ricin

1303
00:52:18,959 --> 00:52:16,749
which I can walk across here and get out

1304
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:18,969
of a castor oil plant but natural is

1305
00:52:22,769 --> 00:52:21,130
good and so anything which is a hundred

1306
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:22,779
percent natural must be really good for

1307
00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:24,880
us to be good so we're going to finish

1308
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:28,390
off oh yeah with some natural beverage

1309
00:52:33,390 --> 00:52:31,170
there's on the back of this it says here

1310
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,400
using only one hundred percent natural

1311
00:52:38,249 --> 00:52:35,440
ingredients heineken is additive and

1312
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:38,259
preservative-free can this stuff not be

1313
00:52:51,980 --> 00:52:49,970
well thank you for joining me Richard

1314
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:51,990
Saunders for this episode of the skeptic

1315
00:52:56,330 --> 00:52:53,970
zone next week we'll have our full

1316
00:52:58,490 --> 00:52:56,340
episode with dr. Ritchie reports the

1317
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:58,500
round up the think tank grain of salt

1318
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:01,619
and all the features you like and to

1319
00:53:07,340 --> 00:53:03,990
leave you I would advise that you

1320
00:53:10,820 --> 00:53:07,350
actually listen to or download Ben gold

1321
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:10,830
acres podcast Ben Goldacre from earlier

1322
00:53:16,330 --> 00:53:13,050
in the show his latest episode has a

1323
00:53:18,590 --> 00:53:16,340
very interesting sequence featuring

1324
00:53:21,230 --> 00:53:18,600
somebody who doesn't think that

1325
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:21,240
vaccinations are a good idea worth a

1326
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,690
listen until next week this is Richard

1327
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:26,400
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1328
00:53:36,020 --> 00:53:31,770
Australia you've been listening to the

1329
00:53:39,290 --> 00:53:36,030
skeptic zone visit our website at wwc a

1330
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:39,300
petting zoo TV for comments contacts and

1331
00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:47,450
it's

1332
00:53:47,460 --> 00:53:54,579
check